Ys - Celceta, Sea of Trees (Ys IV) announced for Vita

[Ventara]

Yeah, that's the downside. I honestly don't understand why people took such issue with UMDs. They're cheap to produce, store 1.8 GB of data, are hard to damage and -- in the hands of good programmers, at least -- have no noticeable downsides in terms of loading (case in point, Oath in Felghana). Some people have said they're loud, but ooooh, so you have a little disc-spinning noise... big deal! (:

The whole flash memory cartridge thing will appease a lot of fans, but may be bad for niche publishers like us, since cartridges are exponentially more expensive to produce. Which may mean more games going digital-only much sooner in the Vita's lifespan. Much to the dismay of several members of this very forum, I imagine. (:

-Tom

It's all about accessibility and ease of use. That is why the UMD sucks.

First off, it is pretty frail. Only collectors and those who really took care of their PSP games would avoid this. I mean, just taking it out of it's case would slowly cause the UMD to split. Imagine if it was handled by kids. Games would break, people would stop playing their games, and interest in PSP would decline. And this is a portable, where games are meant to be carried around. This just increases the problem ten-fold.

Second, it's a tad bit too large. Even if you have a case for it, you wouldn't be able to carry around more than a few in your pocket. You can certainly pack away a few more in a knapsack or bag, but this seriously reduces the amount of accessibility. Not everyone wants to carry a bag, which leads to the PSP not even being taken.

Third, UMD reader. The UMD reader was no doubt a reason why the PSP cost a lot. It had a lot of small components, and if it broke, repairing it probably was not cheap. having a component like this as part of a portable system was definitely not a good idea. If it broke, for a lot of people, it might've meant never owning a PSP again. It also took up a large portion of the PSP itself, a portion that could've been better used.

Fourth, load times and battery. I know you said it's possible, but not everyone are awesome programmers. A lot of games had bad load times, and the UMD spinning drained the battery. Having a system that is easy to deal with for developers is a huge plus for software creation. A spinning disk definitely was not the best idea for a portable system.

Lastly, it's only 1.8GB. Though the DS proved that capacity doesn't matter, the PSP was clearly marketed as having games that were PS2 quality, and and thus set itself up for this limitation. Developers had to create something that was high quality, while limiting themselves to 1.8GB. This may not seem like a big problem, as the PSP definitely achieved great PS2 quality games with it's 1.8GB limit, but at the same time, it would not be untrue to say that developers could've achieved more with bigger space. Right off the bat, the PSP limited itself, setting a max space of 1.8GB, a limit which could not be increased without some sort of new UMD reader.

Btw, if I sound like I hate the PSP, I'm gonna say right now that I love it. Favourite system this gen. I'm just hating on the UMD. I seriously can't understand what Sony was thinking when they thought it up.

As much as I prefer carts... I have to agree. The UMD really seemed like a good media. :/ I have never found any issue with it, and like you said, it is hard to damage. Also, it is not like the noises are any louder than, say, the 360.

And I will also be upset if things go digital only. I hope that you guys do not do that, since I would be unable to support the games put out like that.

What? I think accidentally dropping one might be enough o break it. Definitely NOT hard to damage.

[Wyrdwad]

I think you're not giving the UMD enough credit. They're pretty resilient things (we've dropped them, put stuff on top of them, etc., and never had a single one break in any capacity whatsoever), and some pretty amazingly compact UMD holders (with really solid construction) are available on the market. And while I have seen games that feature ridiculous load times due to the UMD medium, they've really been few and far between -- I'd even venture to say that the vast MAJORITY of PSP titles play no differently on UMD than they do off of a memory stick, ESPECIALLY on the 2000- and 3000-models (after the advent of UMD caching).

Also, 1.8 GB may not sound like a lot, but that's actually more space than the majority of PS2 games used. Sure, they had full DVD storage capacity at their disposal... but what percentage of PS2 games actually USED all that space? Surprisingly few. Heck, a good chunk of PS2 games were even released on CD-ROM instead of DVD-ROM! And if a developer REALLY NEEDED to use more space... well, they could always release their game on multiple UMDs, a la Trails in the Sky 2 and Final Fantasy Type-0.

As for what Sony was thinking, I'm pretty sure they were trying to make production cheaper for developers and publishers in an effort to encourage third-party support on the platform. And ultimately... it worked! The amount of third-party support on the PSP was pretty hefty even early in its life, and it's absolutely STAGGERING now. And I firmly believe that there would be far less support if it weren't for the UMD medium (and PSN, of course).

-Tom

[Dogi]

With UMD catching load times aren't as bad playing from UMD but playing from ISO is infinitely better.

1.8GB seems like a lot of space, but also remember the PSP was a much lower resolution than the Vita will be. Properly sized textures for the resolution can get pretty damn big on their own. So long as companies don't feel the need to shove in pre-rendered videos they shouldn't go above 3-4GB, but that's still pushing 2 UMDs per game and would likely have a lot of texture pop-in if you read from disc like the 360 and PS3 tend to have. Flash memory is also far cheaper than it used to be to produce. I think at this point it just comes down to Sony's proprietary pricing more than anything. Yeah it's not down the nickel per disc or whatever of DVDs, but I know you sure as hell pay more than that to manufacture them anyway. Considering I can buy 2GB flash drives for $5 now I don't think it's much more than $1 to produce the thing physically. Hell the packaging might cost more

[Wyrdwad]

Oh, the packaging WILL cost more, undoubtedly. It always does. But that doesn't mean the increase in price for the medium won't hit us publishers pretty hard. You're thinking in terms of one unit... but if you produce 20,000 copies of the game, even a $1 difference in per-unit manufacturing costs can mean $20,000 more in production costs.

Which can easily be made up if the game is priced $1 more and sells 20,000 copies, of course... but what if it only sells 10,000 copies? Then we'd still be out $10,000 that wouldn't have even come up on PSP, and even more than that if we'd released it digital-only.

It's all about trying to predict how many copies you'll sell so you don't over-produce. And sometimes, predictions can be off. That's why the business side of this industry sucks. (:

-Tom

[onmode-ky]

First off, it is pretty frail. Only collectors and those who really took care of their PSP games would avoid this. I mean, just taking it out of it's case would slowly cause the UMD to split. Imagine if it was handled by kids. Games would break, people would stop playing their games, and interest in PSP would decline. And this is a portable, where games are meant to be carried around. This just increases the problem ten-fold.

Well, I admit I'm pretty careful with my stuff, but I still agree with Tom; I think you may be underestimating the durability of the medium. Kids actually do make up a fairly large part of the PSP's audience nowadays (certainly not the case back when it launched at $250). As the system aged, its audience gradually skewed younger and younger (so said a Sony executive in an interview). Sure, Corpse Party and God of War may not be for them, but they're there.

Fourth, load times and battery. I know you said it's possible, but not everyone are awesome programmers. A lot of games had bad load times, and the UMD spinning drained the battery. Having a system that is easy to deal with for developers is a huge plus for software creation. A spinning disk definitely was not the best idea for a portable system.

For the most part, though, games don't run with the disc spinning all the time. They spin when there's a load operation, and then the disc stops while you play the game. This only really affects battery life for games where the loading from UMD happens constantly.

I used to think that running a game from Memory Stick would result in hugely improved battery life over UMD. I was kind of disappointed when that turned out not to be so.

Lastly, it's only 1.8GB. Though the DS proved that capacity doesn't matter, the PSP was clearly marketed as having games that were PS2 quality, and and thus set itself up for this limitation. Developers had to create something that was high quality, while limiting themselves to 1.8GB. This may not seem like a big problem, as the PSP definitely achieved great PS2 quality games with it's 1.8GB limit, but at the same time, it would not be untrue to say that developers could've achieved more with bigger space. Right off the bat, the PSP limited itself, setting a max space of 1.8GB, a limit which could not be increased without some sort of new UMD reader.

On top of what Tom wrote about PS2 games' used disc capacity, I'd also like to point out that you can see some PSP game sizes by checking out their entries in the PS Store. The majority of UMD-released games seem to have been less than 1 GB in size (personally, I'm still stunned that a game with the visual and aural splendor of DariusBurst could be only 61 MB). So, storage medium capacity does not appear to have been an issue at all for the PSP; likely, RAM size played a greater role in restricting content size.

I'm just hating on the UMD. I seriously can't understand what Sony was thinking when they thought it up.

In addition to what Tom wrote, I think Sony was thinking, "How can we allow much larger capacity than what current (2004) IC memory technology allows?"

Heck, a good chunk of PS2 games were even released on CD-ROM instead of DVD-ROM!

In case anyone's not aware, the blue PS2 discs were the CD-ROMs.

onmode-ky

[Ventara]

I think you're not giving the UMD enough credit. They're pretty resilient things (we've dropped them, put stuff on top of them, etc., and never had a single one break in any capacity whatsoever), and some pretty amazingly compact UMD holders (with really solid construction) are available on the market. And while I have seen games that feature ridiculous load times due to the UMD medium, they've really been few and far between -- I'd even venture to say that the vast MAJORITY of PSP titles play no differently on UMD than they do off of a memory stick, ESPECIALLY on the 2000- and 3000-models (after the advent of UMD caching).

Also, 1.8 GB may not sound like a lot, but that's actually more space than the majority of PS2 games used. Sure, they had full DVD storage capacity at their disposal... but what percentage of PS2 games actually USED all that space? Surprisingly few. Heck, a good chunk of PS2 games were even released on CD-ROM instead of DVD-ROM! And if a developer REALLY NEEDED to use more space... well, they could always release their game on multiple UMDs, a la Trails in the Sky 2 and Final Fantasy Type-0.

As for what Sony was thinking, I'm pretty sure they were trying to make production cheaper for developers and publishers in an effort to encourage third-party support on the platform. And ultimately... it worked! The amount of third-party support on the PSP was pretty hefty even early in its life, and it's absolutely STAGGERING now. And I firmly believe that there would be far less support if it weren't for the UMD medium (and PSN, of course).

-Tom

Although I admit they're not as frail as BACONBACONBACONBACONBACONBACONBACONs, I still think they're pretty weak, and definitely wouldn't use the word resilient to describe them. I'll leave this at that, since I'm sure everyone has a UMD and can decide for themselves. Anyways, I have purchased some replacement UMD cases myself, and they are pretty durable (Sony totally should've gone with it's design), but that's still something that consumers have to go a bit out of their way to get. It helps fix the flaw in the UMD, but flaw still exists in the first place.

And I did concede that there have been may PSP games that provide us with great experiences while being below the 1.8GB capacity, but what I was saying was that it wasn't a good idea to set a limit right off the bat. From the moment it was released to the very end of it's life, it would never be able to exceed 1.8GB. Sure, as you pointed out, multiple UMDs can be used, but is that eally a wise choice for a portable system? And wouldn't something like that just add to the cost? Anyways, the 1.8GB limit was just a small problem, really, so I'll just stop here.

As for it helping third party support, I wasn't really in the know when it first came out, so I'm not sure how it was back then, but when you say that the amount of third party support is staggering now, I'm a bit doubtful. Are we talking about PSN only titles here, because other than a few games that are being localized, I can't think of any titles that are coming out now or in the near future. But even if there was a lot of third party support, I wouldn't give credit to the UMD. It would probably be the same reason why most consoles get awesome games near the end of their life; production and development costs drop, licensing and other business stuff become more lax as everyone tries to push out games before the system goes caput. In fact, I'd say that the UMD negatively affected support. It's design definitely lost potential costumers > lowering software sales > lowering support.

Edit: Btw, that edited out word is c.r.a.c.k.e.r (the biscuit kind). I'm gonna guess it edited it out because it thought of the racial slur used for white people.

Well, I admit I'm pretty careful with my stuff, but I still agree with Tom; I think you may be underestimating the durability of the medium. Kids actually do make up a fairly large part of the PSP's audience nowadays (certainly not the case back when it launched at $250). As the system aged, its audience gradually skewed younger and younger (so said a Sony executive in an interview). Sure, Corpse Party and God of War may not be for them, but they're there.



For the most part, though, games don't run with the disc spinning all the time. They spin when there's a load operation, and then the disc stops while you play the game. This only really affects battery life for games where the loading from UMD happens constantly.

I used to think that running a game from Memory Stick would result in hugely improved battery life over UMD. I was kind of disappointed when that turned out not to be so.



On top of what Tom wrote about PS2 games' used disc capacity, I'd also like to point out that you can see some PSP game sizes by checking out their entries in the PS Store. The majority of UMD-released games seem to have been less than 1 GB in size (personally, I'm still stunned that a game with the visual and aural splendor of DariusBurst could be only 61 MB). So, storage medium capacity does not appear to have been an issue at all for the PSP; likely, RAM size played a greater role in restricting content size.



In addition to what Tom wrote, I think Sony was thinking, "How can we allow much larger capacity than what current (2004) IC memory technology allows?"



In case anyone's not aware, the blue PS2 discs were the CD-ROMs.

onmode-ky

I play with my PSP a lot, and I have to say I do notice significant increased gamer time (aka battery life) when playing digital over UMD. Though it may not be spinning the entire time you're playing, it does spin. I roughly get 40% more time when playing digital.

Anyways, the point I was really trying to make (and being the idiot that I am, completely forgot to mention in my last post) was that this new format for the VITA is a huge improvement over the UMD. I seriously believe the UMD has no future. No matter how awesome the house, you need a strong foundation, and the UMD was not a strong foundation. It may have been cheap, but it's flaws were evident and could not be fixed.

[Wyrdwad]

As for it helping third party support, I wasn't really in the know when it first came out, so I'm not sure how it was back then, but when you say that the amount of third party support is staggering now, I'm a bit doubtful. Are we talking about PSN only titles here, because other than a few games that are being localized, I can't think of any titles that are coming out now or in the near future.

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I was referring to Japanese titles more than anything else. Virtually every Japanese company short of Nintendo themselves put tons of support behind the PSP in Japan, and right now, that number is at its absolute peak -- far, FAR more companies than supported the DS during any point in its lifespan. And I believe the UMD format has *everything* to do with that.

And for any Japanese console or handheld, Japanese third-party support means a much larger pool of games for localizers to choose from.

EDIT: And actually, third-party support for the PSP seems still to be going pretty strong in North America, too. I mean, we've got Corpse Party and Grand Knights History on the way (among others?), Aksys has Fate/Extra and Hakuouki on the way, NIS just released Cladun 2 and has Black Rock Shooter on the way, Atlus just released Persona 2: Innocent Sin, Square Enix has Final Fantasy Type-0 on the way... and while some of those are PSN-only, most of those either have or will have UMD releases. Not bad for a system that's supposedly on the decline in a region that never embraced it as fully as Japan did, no? (:

-Tom

[rpgfan]

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I was referring to Japanese titles more than anything else. Virtually every Japanese company short of Nintendo themselves put tons of support behind the PSP in Japan, and right now, that number is at its absolute peak -- far, FAR more companies than supported the DS during any point in its lifespan. And I believe the UMD format has *everything* to do with that.

And for any Japanese console or handheld, Japanese third-party support means a much larger pool of games for localizers to choose from.

EDIT: And actually, third-party support for the PSP seems still to be going pretty strong in North America, too. I mean, we've got Corpse Party and Grand Knights History on the way (among others?), Aksys has Fate/Extra and Hakuouki on the way, NIS just released Cladun 2 and has Black Rock Shooter on the way, Atlus just released Persona 2: Innocent Sin, Square Enix has Final Fantasy Type-0 on the way... and while some of those are PSN-only, most of those either have or will have UMD releases. Not bad for a system that's supposedly on the decline in a region that never embraced it as fully as Japan did, no? (:

-Tom

Can't wait to hear future titles you plan to localize for the PSP. You just love to tease don't you.

[Chaosblade]

EDIT: And actually, third-party support for the PSP seems still to be going pretty strong in North America, too. I mean, we've got Corpse Party and Grand Knights History on the way (among others?), Aksys has Fate/Extra and Hakuouki on the way, NIS just released Cladun 2 and has Black Rock Shooter on the way, Atlus just released Persona 2: Innocent Sin, Square Enix has Final Fantasy Type-0 on the way... and while some of those are PSN-only, most of those either have or will have UMD releases. Not bad for a system that's supposedly on the decline in a region that never embraced it as fully as Japan did, no? (:

-Tom

Do they now?

Anyway, it can have all the games in the world, but if they aren't getting bought does it make a difference? I guess you could say the games wouldn't be available if there isn't an audience.

Too bad about a certain title that's absent from that list. Sega kills kittens. You heard it here first.

[Ryos]

Do they now?

They haven't announced it but if they don't release it here, they'd be nuts. Even considering the state of the market here, they'd sell 200k+ units.