Lack of honorifics in localised titles (localising vs. translating)

[Adrian-kun]

The Japanese language uses a broad array of honorific suffixes for addressing or referring to people, for example -san, as in Daniel-san. These honorifics are gender-neutral (can be used for males and females), and can be attached to first names as well as surnames, for example, Peter-san, Jessica-san, Smith-san. (wikipedia)
Unfortunately, almost all video game companies that publish Japanese games in the US and EU remove this element.
Did you know that in Final Fantasy X, Yuna actually addresses Auron as 'Auron-sama'?
(-sama is used mainly to refer to people much higher in rank than oneself).
Late in the game she says 'Auron-san' (-san is a title of respect typically used between equals of any age) in order reflect the fact that the relation between them has changed.
The English language doesn't offer these forms of respect which is shame. But that doesn't mean we can't maintain elements from other cultures. The Japanese language has received many English words after all.
Either way, I'm glad that companies like ATLUS try to maintaining these elements. I think other companies should as well, especially since these companies are publishing games made by Japanese. Why should one remove an important part of their culture?

PS: Sorry for the long post

[fedaykin]

Personally, I think that Atlus made a mistake by maintaining Japanese honorifics in Persona 4. If we had the Japanese voice track, which I would be all in favour of, then by all means. However, I feel that if you're going to translate something into English, then you should do the job fully and have it properly in English. The skill and subtlety of the translation would be to convey the character's relationships, thus preserving the feel of the original Japanese, without having to resort to bast_ardising the language.

To take your example, I think that using "Sir Auron" early on in FF10 and then changing to simply "Auron" would reflect accurately enough the shift in the relationship and I absolutely agree with you that such subtleties should be preserved. I don't however think we should pepper an English text with "san" and "senpai".

Nevertheless, I accept that such neat solutions aren't always available.

[CW Boi 209]

Personally, it would only bug me if they removed the honorifics when the game is set somewhere in Japan. That's why I also felt that Atlus did something right when they kept the honorifics in Persona 3 & 4.

For some reason though it bugs the hell out of me when companies try to change every little thing during localizations such as the setting like country and place, and some other little trivial things (Like from Ramen to Burgers in the Ace Attorney series).

[Ryos]

I know some people really care about the honorifics but personally, it sticks out to me to leave in Japanese in a translation. I know that honorifics don't have set translations, but I prefer the tendency of companies to try and equate sir or lord or whatever in place of honorifics. Localizations are meant to be faithful but also accessible to the current audience. A 100% literal Japanese translation is going to be riddled with poorly worded phrases and ideas and obscure puns.

[Wyrdwad]

Yeah, while I do respect the decision of other companies to leave honorifics in when localizing video games, that's not something XSEED has ever done, and it's not something we're likely to start doing, either. We're of the mindset that localization is about capturing the essence of the original Japanese dialogue, while still making it sound natural in English. -san, -chan, -sama, etc. fulfill the first condition, but do NOT fulfill the second. And while Japanese and English are very different languages, there are precious few instances where you can't find *some* cultural equivalent in English that would reflect a Japanese subtlety like that, while still sounding totally natural to virtually *all* native English speakers, rather than just those English speakers with some knowledge of Japanese culture.

In short, we believe that a good localization doesn't have to rely on leaving words untranslated to get the subtle nuances of the original language across.

-Tom

[Ventara]

I agree with what fedaykin, Ryos, and Wyrdwad wrote.

Localizing is about getting the idea across to people of a different language. Going back and resorting to Japanese terms is kinda backwards to that. It may be true most people who play JRPGs know what those kinda honorifics mean, but English speakers who never have had any exposure to that won't, and thus the idea is not translated across to them.

[repulsive human]

A comprehensive understanding of Japanese name modifiers shouldn't be mandatory to play an English language game. Also, English is the most flexible language in the world. It's so easy to convey gradients of respect without relying on Japanese honorifics and it's sort of lazy to do otherwise!

[BuckTwenty]

To keep using Persona 3/4 as an example:

So if they dropped the honorifics, some of you would be okay with that because they don't sound natural in English. Okay, so would they have to change the characters names, too? Chie or Yosuke or Junpei aren't typical English names, especially when the voices coming from the characters are without a hint of accent.

Just playing devils advocate here, really. I kind of think this sort of thing could go either way. For the Persona games, I think it helps convey that this game is taking place specifically in Japan. But do I need Mario referring to Toad as Toad-san or whatever? No thanks.

[Wyrdwad]

Those are the characters' names, so no, changing them would be extremely counterproductive. The game DOES take place in Japan, and the characters are Japanese, so it would make no sense for them to be named, say, Brad, Nate and Mary (to use UTTERLY RANDOM EXAMPLES, I swear!).

The thing is, though, you're playing the game in English, so leaving part of it untranslated is arguably just as counterproductive. There is no meaning behind using a name-ending in Japanese that can't be conveyed in English just as easily, with a bit of creative rephrasing. Case in point, there's a scene in Trails in the Sky where Jill and Estelle are talking in their dorm room, and I believe it's Jill who suggests that the two of them stop using name endings with one another (a sign that she wants to be closer with Estelle). In the English, this entire conversation was reworded -- Jill, who had been talking about her best friends on campus, asks Estelle if she could count her among them. EXACT same idea, but without resorting to untranslated text.

In many ways, it's a matter of professionalism. If you're translating from Japanese to English... then actually TRANSLATE from Japanese to English. If you leave words untranslated, you're really not doing your job, are you? (:

...To be fair, I really don't mind when companies leave name-endings and words like "senpai" or "kouhai" untranslated, and I can definitely understand the reasoning behind doing so. But after being guilty of leaving name-endings untranslated myself for many years as a fan-translator, I came to realize something: if I were to show the anime I fan-translated to, say, my parents... they'd be confused. Not by the Japanese names (if audiences can accept made-up names like Slartybartfast, it would be pretty hypocritical of them not to accept names like Toshi or Yukiko as well!), but by things like -sama and -chan. Those don't exist in English, and by leaving them untranslated, I've effectively turned my own parents away from ever being able to fully immerse themselves in the show I toiled over. And that realization definitely hit me pretty hard.

-Tom

[BuckTwenty]

See, I'm torn, here. I understand where your coming from and generally agree, but I feel like the honorifics add charm to the Persona series. Sure, honorifics wouldn't work in every game, and yes, people may not understand them at first, but... Well, I guess the way I approached it for Persona (the first time I had even HEARD of honorifics) was to figure it out as I went along. I mean, I had to learn what "Agi," "Bufudyne," and "Mazio" meant, why not try to figure out why people kept adding "-senpai" to the end of other people's names?

...I don't know. Would I be bothered if Persona 5 didn't have honorifics? To be honest, I probably wouldn't notice, at least at first. So I guess they don't have to be there, but... I'm having trouble articulating this, haha.

I guess I'll just say I like them in Persona and am alright with not encountering them elsewhere. At least, I haven't noticed any "gap in meaning" in any other game I've played due to a lack of honorifics.