Kickstarter: The Last Hope for XSeed Physicals

[JiggiUp]

Crossposting because I feel this deserves its own thread.

So XSeed hates risk, right? Then they should realize that there is a RISK-FREE option for getting physical editions of games released and pleasing all customers: Kickstarter. Monkey Paw Games have been the pioneers of this with their Class of Heroes 2 deluxe edition fund.

I would really love to see XSeed utilize this valuable resource, and I think they'd also be happy to be able to appease all their fans. Here's my proposal:

When DD-only games are announced, a Kickstarter fund would go up for a physical limited edition with extras. If the goal isn't reached in time, the physicals aren't made--period. They would initially only be sold to backers who donated at least the game's list price. There would be a very limited single printing with the unsold copies going up on the XSeed Store and nowhere else after the backers got theirs, assuming there were any left.

That should take care of everyone who'd be interested in a physical copy, right? And you'll know in advance whether the game will be profitable enough, right? And if you don't receive enough money to cover manufacturing costs, you don't have to make anything, right? Really, what's holding you back?

[KnightofAncient]

http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2012/02/kickstarter-blindside/all/1

[JiggiUp]

And yet Monkey Paw Games is going through with it.

Perhaps XSeed is a little too risk-averse for their own good.

[Shizuka]

I think we had our share of topics suggesting XSEED use Kickstarter, we don't actually need another one.

[JiggiUp]

They can delete this if they want. Things are different now that Monkey Paw is actually doing what I just described, and it would be a complement to a DD-only release that's already set in stone--the fate of the entire localization wouldn't be at stake. It's worth further consideration.

[Takao]

Monkey Paw is seeing an amazing success with their Kickstarter campaign, right?

[Shizuka]

Monkey Paw is seeing an amazing success with their Kickstarter campaign, right?

Thanks to the great choice of said game.

[Chaosblade]

And a pretty ridiculous funding goal.

In theory a kickstarter for physical releases seems like it could work (but not for the localization itself). There could be issues I'm not thinking of though.

[iammako3]

I'd be all for this, though XSEED might need a "street team" of sorts in order to get the word out it was happening. I'm sure they'd get a ton of volunteers from here or the internet in general to get the word out though.

[Slur]

Buzzword..

[TG_Judgement]

And a pretty ridiculous funding goal.

And bad low-tier backing rewards. The 25$ is not so bad now that it has a digital soundtrack on it,but the lower ones are still incredibly bad (your name on the source code?I hope they don't add them as comment lines...)

[DrROBschiz]

Sorry but i actually prefer all digital and i think its a brilliant move on their part. Now that they can distribute games easier and cheaper we may see a higher volume of timely releases.

Going full retail is too costly and throws so many hurdles in the way guys. Just look at all the people benefiting from Steam/PSN/XBLA etc... and tell me this isn't the way to go.

[IcedEarthaholic]

Well, whenever those servers crash DrROBschiz, and trust me, most likely a fair amount of them will be shut down in 10 - 20 years, you'll understand why alot of us such as myself are vehemently against DDL.

[Slur]

Well, whenever those servers crash DrROBschiz, and trust me, most likely a fair amount of them will be shut down in 10 - 20 years, you'll understand why alot of us such as myself are vehemently against DDL.

As opposed to when hardware manages to obsolete itself and wear down.

[omgfloofy]

Well, whenever those servers crash DrROBschiz, and trust me, most likely a fair amount of them will be shut down in 10 - 20 years, you'll understand why alot of us such as myself are vehemently against DDL.

Well, you can backup your games still- especially with the capability for it on the Vita. You don't NEED to use PSN to make a purchase again on there. And during the PSN downtime, I was still able to play Trails in the Sky, which I had as a digital purchase. And regarding Steam, Gabe has said that if Steam is going to shut down, Valve will release the DRM on the games purchased on it.

You're still required some responsibility for what you've downloaded. If you damage your disc, is the publisher obligated to give you another copy of it? No. This is the same thing. You backup and you protect your own downloads. You don't rely on the company to be able to replace it for you.

I say this from experience as a digital artist. I don't have a way to store my original work other than with hard drives and DVD-ROMs. I create archives of my photography and of my design work and store them somewhere safe off of my primary computer so that nothing can happen to them. I know for a fact that this is an option on the PS3 and the Vita, and I think it is with Steam as well.

[KnightofAncient]

Also as I stated in another thread. There is Sony's Media Go software which enables you to download PSP games unto your computer and you can store that file wherever you wish. All you need is a PSP USB cable.

[Chaosblade]

Vita doesn't support MediaGo though. Which I find pretty ridiculous.

[KnightofAncient]

Ya Vita doesnt but at least it works for regular PSP games and PS1 classics though. I wonder, could the same concept be used with downloading Vita games off PSN on the PS3? I dont have a PS3 so thats why I am asking.

[omgfloofy]

Using the Content Manager on the Vita while connected to your PC allows you to backup your games. You can also hook up an external hard drive and back up the PS3 completely that way as well.

[Kou the Mad]

this could work for Xseed, but they'd need to do a game thats more well known (and/or liked) then Class of Heroes as well as offer better rewards.

[omgfloofy]

this could work for Xseed, but they'd need to do a game thats more well known (and/or liked) then Class of Heroes as well as offer better rewards.

The article that KnightofAncient linked at the beginning of the post has the following information on the idea of someone like XSEED using Kickstarter:

(as people don't seem to be actually reading the article.)



But publisher Xseed Games, which specializes in releasing niche Japanese games like Corpse Party and The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky, says it’s not that easy.

“As a publisher that acquires rights to publish games developed and owned by other companies, it would be extremely difficult for us to use Kickstarter effectively,” said Xseed Director of Publishing Ken Berry in an e-mail to Wired.com.

In order to strike a licensing deal, Berry says, Xseed first confirms the availability of a given title and then puts down money as an upfront guarantee. If Xseed were to use Kickstarter, it would have to ask the IP holder to sit on the license to see if Xseed could raise funds for the project.

“Not only does this come across as being very unprofessional, it also eliminates any risk we would have had by putting up an upfront minimum guarantee ourselves,” Berry said. “While that may seem like a blessing that we have no risk on our side, the main benefit to the licensor is that the licensee is willing to take on all the risk since they are guaranteed a certain amount of money no matter how poorly the title sells.”

In other words, the IP holder lowers its rewards in exchange for lower risk, letting Xseed do the gambling.

“If the licensor sees that the risk can be easily overcome by using Kickstarter, they would be much more inclined to publish it themselves rather than licensing it out,” Berry said.

There’s also the risk that a Kickstarter project could meet its goal and Xseed could use the money to sign a deal only to have unforeseen circumstances lead to things falling apart at the last minute, says Xseed senior editor Jessica Chavez.

“Things like this happen and we wouldn’t want fans, especially after such a show of support, to be disappointed,” she said in an e-mail. “Or angry. Or to send us painstakingly handwritten notes suggesting unpleasant things that might be done to us with blunt and/or sharp objects.”

If you look at the Class of Heroes thing, that's for a limited edition set, and to get a physical copy, and it doesn't look like it will get funded at this rate, even. You don't get a standard physical copy on it at all. And as was said before, NISA couldn't even get 1,000 preorders for What Did I Do To Deserve This, My Lord?! when they made the offer to do a physical release on it, as well.

I can understand the interest in things with Kickstarter, but I think it would be awfully difficult to really work with in some cases- especially in this case.

[Slur]

This thread devolved into the whole DD discussion too, didn't it?

I honestly think this topic should stay dead for a good period of time, so we can move on and progress rather than regress.

[DrROBschiz]

Well, whenever those servers crash DrROBschiz, and trust me, most likely a fair amount of them will be shut down in 10 - 20 years, you'll understand why alot of us such as myself are vehemently against DDL.

I dont understand this argument. Once its downloaded you have it. Then its on you to preserve the file for the 10-20 years you plan on keeping and replaying it.

Plus this stuff never truly goes away. You have people like the guys at GOG, Cheap releases/remakes/collections, so on so forth.

We also have mountains of gaming enthusiasts that keep retro gaming alive through emulators and maintain massive collections and databases.

What makes you think we are gonna have this massive loss of the things we love just because we are moving towards all digital?

[Minneyar]

I dont understand this argument. Once its downloaded you have it. Then its on you to preserve the file for the 10-20 years you plan on keeping and replaying it.

People keeping making that argument because they don't understand that the real issue is with DRM. You may have the files, but if a game requires that you connect to the publisher's servers to install or play it, then in 10 or 20 years when those servers have disappeared, you will no longer be able to play your game. (also, that is why DRM-free publishers like GOG are awesome)

[DrROBschiz]

Always on internet connection DRM is definitely a big step backwards for DD.

I will concede that its a very real concern for anyone who plans on keeping and replaying their old games for years and years.

I would recommend people dont support games that use this method. At least when Blizzard does it they pretty much leave their servers on until your dead.

[Fabrizo]

People keeping making that argument because they don't understand that the real issue is with DRM

This, so much this. If DD was DRM free, or at least had it removed on all titles a while after release, it would be so much better.

[Peekachu]

This, so much this. If DD was DRM free, or at least had it removed on all titles a while after release, it would be so much better.

I'm guessing that none of you have heard of Super Nintendo or PSX/ PS2 emulators? As long as the internet is around, we will forever have access to past system's titles. Emulators are a fantastic way to preserve the medium and with the translation scene, even bring us games that we otherwise might never have had in the West. I don't advocate this while a system is still being produced and sold, as that is unequivocally piracy. But once the manufacturer pulls the plug on their own product, its fair game. Anyway, emulators usually lag about 2-5 years past a system's death to reach a playable state, so its usually no harm, no foul. Indie devs are still making Dreamcast games! Dreamcast games! Some incredible stuff out there.

So unless a giant meteor hits the earth, wiping out all traces of human civilization and sources of power, I'm pretty sure our digital content will be preserved. In 20 years we won't have to connect to Sony/ Ninty's servers, the ROMs/ Rips/ Emulators/de-encryption software will be available with a simple Google search and you can play it on your super tablet, or space goggle tvs or whatever we use in the FOOTURE.

Anyway, Kickstarter for uber niche products (CoH 2) just won't work. The interest simply isn't there. Make it digital and put it out for $15 and you will at least see a return on the investment.

Edit: I don't advocate piracy, but if the PC scene is any indication, DRM is a straw house. Usually cracks are out before the game even launches. They do Steam rips/ backups now. That's a digital backup. Not physical. I'm gonna stop the Arr-matey talk now, but you know what I mean.

[Kou the Mad]

yeah, Gaijin works kinda dropped the ball on that one.

[Fabrizo]

I'm guessing that none of you have heard of Super Nintendo or PSX/ PS2 emulators?

From my experience the only truly accurate emulators are for the really old 2D systems, SNES and earlier. PS1/Saturn emulators are decent enough now, but they're still years away from being able to accurately emulate all the hardware. Newer then that and fulling working / non-glitched games are the exception instead of the rule.

Emulators are great to have in the long term, but they shouldn't be considered a silver bullet fix either.

[Peekachu]

From my experience the only truly accurate emulators are for the really old 2D systems, SNES and earlier. PS1/Saturn emulators are decent enough now, but they're still years away from being able to accurately emulate all the hardware. Newer then that and fulling working / non-glitched games are the exception instead of the rule.

Emulators are great to have in the long term, but they shouldn't be considered a silver bullet fix either.

You can full emulate PS2 and Wii games as many years ago. All you need is a more recent laptop/ computer. See: PCSX 2 and Dolphin. The compatibility is pretty extraordinary actually. I think the argument that digital copies will somehow vanish or be locked out of consumer hands, when physical copies - which are susceptible to ACTUAL damage, depreciation or loss in the physical world - will not is rather narrow minded. I'm not saying that you've made that argument, but it seems to be what a lot of voices on the DD issue have to say.

[Chaosblade]

Dolphin and PCSX2 still have a very long way to go. Today, they're more limited by the software and not the hardware it's running on, new Intel CPUs (especially overclocked) will run essentially any compatible game. PSCX2 is better off than Dolphin IIRC, but neither is compatible with more than half their respective libraries as far as I know. They certainly can't replace the console, unlike an SNES emulator, for example. BSNES makes an actual SNES obsolete.


yeah, Gaijin works kinda dropped the ball on that one.

The entire problem with that kickstarter was the concept. It was all about a big LE and not about the game. Not only do most people not want to spend a bunch of money on a huge LE, but they especially don't want to do it on a game they don't care about. One thing you'll find in common with all the successful game kickstarters is that the most popular tier, by far, is a copy of the game for $10-$20. Sometimes even at a discounted price compared to their estimated release price. Gaijinworks didn't give you a copy of the game until you spent like $80 on the LE.

It's not really hard to have a successful kickstarter, as long as you can do a good job putting a compelling pitch together for something people actually want. Ask for a reasonable amount of money, have some fair tiers, and don't talk about crap gamers don't want to hear (see: Starlight Inception having day 1 DLC, which they canned due to backlash, and their kickstarter still hasn't recovered). I mean, look at Echoes of Eternia. It's an RPGMaker game using freely available sprites/tiles and a freely available combat mod, and it's probably not even going to be any good. They asked for a "reasonable" amount of money, and they've more than doubled (probably tripled at this point) their goal.

* Okay, somebody probably wanted it, but that's beside the point ;)

[Fabrizo]

You can full emulate PS2 and Wii games as many years ago.

You can emulate them, but they're probably at least a decade off from "fully" emulating those consoles. It's like saying ZSNES in the mid-late 90s is the same as BSNES these days, the level of accuracy has no comparison for anyone who actually cares.


Dolphin and PCSX2 still have a very long way to go. They certainly can't replace the console, unlike an SNES emulator, for example. BSNES makes an actual SNES obsolete.

Exactly this.

[Blank]

but they're probably at least a decade off from "fully" emulating those consoles.
Actually, no. They can FULLY emulate PS2 & Wii on PC and with some minor problems on laptop.

Guys, it's 2012, not 2008.

[Minneyar]

Actually, no. They can FULLY emulate PS2 & Wii on PC and with some minor problems on laptop.

"Fully emulate with some minor problems" is not "fully emulate." PS2 and Wii emulators are not even close to fully emulating the systems. SNES emulation has only very recently actually become "perfect," and it's a lot more demanding than you think it is. Read this: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2011/08/accuracy-takes-power-one-mans-3ghz-quest-to-build-a-perfect-snes-emulator.ars

[Dusty Starr]

Well, that article was an interesting read, though, a little depressing at the same time. I did not realize that emulation was so tricky. Now I am a bit more worried about trying to play Mother 3, despite people telling me that it should run fine with some tweeking. Still, at least people are working to make emulation better. I fear for the system requirements to emulate newer consoles though. :/

So, is BSNES the best SNES emulator out there? I have never emulated anything, but am more used to ZNES, or whatever it was.

[Chaosblade]

BSNES has really high system requirements (obviously). I'd really only recommend using it if you know a game in question is going to have issues in another emulator like ZNES though. I'm almost positive your Mother 3 experience would not be hindered by VBA or whatever GBA emulator you decide on.

[Dusty Starr]

Isn't there something like VBA-M that is actually optimizaed for Mother 3? :3 I have just heard that Mother 3 is one of the rare GBA games that has emulation issues, but have also been told that they can be fixed easily.

And, the only SNES game I can think of playing off the top of my head is Earthbound... I want to play this series. X3 Maybe Live a Live and Seiken Densetsu 3 with translation patches. Would any of these games have issues on ZNES or an emulator like it?

[none123]

I always played mine on snes9x. I found it to be the best in emulating the games I play.But I recommend buying the games on wii vc when it's out on there.

[Dusty Starr]

Well... I do not see that happening for the games that I listed any time soon. :3 Not that I believe the whole "legal issues are preventing Earthbound from being on the VC) business, I just think that Nintendo does not give much of a crap about their Virtual Consoles anymore.

[Takao]

This is how Jak & Daxter looks like on PCSX2:

http://www.abload.de/img/pcsx2-r46002011-07-2122csz.jpg

"Fully emulated"

[Dusty Starr]

That is BACONBACONBACONBACONing terrifying. :(

[Fabrizo]

So, is BSNES the best SNES emulator out there?

Yep BSNES is the best. There are two versions: accuracy and compatibility. The only difference is that accuracy is essentially a perfect representation of the snes, but at the cost of using about 3ghz, while compatibility sacrifices accuracy in 1 game (Chopper Command?) to cut requirements down to about 1.5ghz.

[Peekachu]

Actually, no. They can FULLY emulate PS2 & Wii on PC and with some minor problems on laptop.

Guys, it's 2012, not 2008.

OMG I know. I have a high end laptop that outputs Digital Devil Saga, .Hack and other JRPGs into 1080p on my set. If you have low end PC hardware, there will be a struggle. An i7 and any 2011 video card can run these games without a hitch. That is a fact. Proven. Not open to debate. IF you have a computer with the aforementioned specs, download the emulators, pop in your PS2 classics and see for yourself.