future of consoles according to cnet!

[perrandy]

http://games.yahoo.com/blogs/plugged-in/hello-brave-world-console-gaming-003839870.html
New game console rumors are piling up -- and they're painting a pretty bleak picture. Is the future of console gaming something out of an Orwell novel?
By Jeff Bakalar, CNET
The next evolution of home console gaming is shaping up like a dystopian Philip K. BACONBACONBACONBACON short story. Refueled by the latest PlayStation 4 rumor, signs continue to point to a future in which games are no longer really yours to own, instead just a virtual right to play -- just as long as you're connected to the Internet, have a unique ownership ID, and aren't playing a used copy.
This isn't the first we've heard of this either; a January report says Microsoft's next machine will attempt to thwart used games too.
Of course Sony hasn't confirmed any of these supposedly leaked details, but is it really out of the realm of possibility? The Vita is a prime example of the company's piracy paranoia. It's locked down and vacuum-sealed, made painfully apparent by how tedious it is doing trivial things like transferring files between device and computer. The reason for all the red tape? To combat piracy.
Given this recent display of aggressive protection, reading a rumor about a PlayStation 4 that's just as meticulously locked down isn't too hard to swallow.
Think this worst-case scenario is that far off? Think again. It's already starting to happen. Every EA game sold for Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 now has anti-used game components built in. New games ship with one-time use codes that give the original owner access to online game play and features. If you try and play one of these titles without the code on a different console or gamertag, it'll cost you extra to get online.
The most infamous anti-used game controversy came with the release of last year's Batman: Arkham City. Players who bought the game used missed out on the entire Catwoman campaign as it required a unique code upon playing the game for the first time. Game reseller GameStop eventually made good on the incident by including codes for those who bought the game pre-owned.
Speaking of GameStop, I can't imagine the company is too thrilled about the recent rumors surrounding the PS4 and its anti-used game tech. Gamesindustry is already suggesting the game giant could theoretically refuse to sell PS4 games simply for the fact that they would be "un-resellable." Now I'm not going to lose sleep over the death of a company that makes money off buying used games at a low price and then selling them back just $5 less than retail, but GameStop isn't the only entity that could potentially see an impact from the elimination of used games.
Look at the game rental business with services like Gamefly and sites that organize game trades between consenting players. What about those guys? It all funnels into a core concept of how ingrained used games are to the entire video game marketplace and ecosystem.
But perhaps the most overlooked element of this entire conversation is the idea of selling a game back has become such an integral part of the psychology of game buying. A customer feels much better about buying a brand new $60 game that turns out to be awful because they know there's a safety net in place that will most likely get them at least half their money back -- or more if they sell it in the right marketplace. In a world where selling back games is no longer an option, will games sell as well as they do now?
And what about the social ramifications of eliminating used games? Does this mean kids won't be able to go to a friend's house and show them the great new Portal game they just bought? That was half my childhood for crying out loud. But in this brave new world, that act may be considered trying to play a used game.
This week's PS4 rumor suggests that all games would be tied to a single PSN ID -- so could one sign into their ID on a friend's console thus allowing the "sharing" of the game? We just don't know yet.
So what does the future of gaming look like? I think a good indication of what might come to be is how Activision has approached Modern Warfare 3. Encouraging gamers to hop on board a subscription-based gaming experience not only shifts focus away from those who might want to sell a game back, but also increases overall game play value.
Modern Warfare 3 offers a one-year subscription price that includes any and all DLC over the course of a calendar year. It's cheaper to buy the membership upfront rather than picking and choosing which DLC you want.
What this really boils down to is the end of physical media. We lost a possessive right the second physical discs and material items like books, games, and music became nothing more than 0s and 1s on a drive. Sure, they might consist of the same data you'd get on an actual disc or book, but once they were made intangible, an unwritten sense of ownership was severed. There doesn't seem to be a used-game epidemic plaguing the Apple's App Store, does there?
So why is this the trend? Why does every little rumor and bit of news that leaks out all indicate that the next generation of game consoles will be fashioned this way? It can't be because console manufactures actually believe it will increase revenue when I just explained how, if anything, it might even lead to less sales.
Is there a silver lining here? Perhaps. Maybe this will could drive the cost of games down. The push towards the elimination of physical media does remove a number of middlemen from the equation, bringing overhead down. It'll also light a fire under those who can help improve the state of broadband connectivity in this country because not everyone is lucky enough to have a high-speed connection that will deliver a 50GB game in a timely manner.
Will Sony unveil details about the next PlayStation at E3 2012? Microsoft has already preemptively announced that an Xbox 360 successor will not be a topic of conversation at the big show. If the rumors are true and we do see a PlayStation 4 in 2013, Sony would also trade places with Microsoft in being the first to market with a new console, the opposite of what happened with Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 in 2005 and 2006 respectively (not counting the WiiU of course).
Whichever way the chips fall, we'll be the first to let you know as we'll be covering E3 2012 live from the show floor this June.

your opinions on this piece?:0

[Takao]

CNET is the same website where one of their editors said they didn't expect Vita to be released in North America.

[perrandy]

CNET is the same website where one of their editors said they didn't expect Vita to be released in North America.so?do you think that what they say is irrelevant?? if so thanks for your input

[conurebleu]

nstead just a virtual right to play -- just as long as you're connected to the Internet, have a unique ownership ID, and aren't playing a used copy.

That's how I see DD coming to :-( It's sad, but they are definitely going there unless people do something about it like...Not buying those future system? But the population is stupid, they will =/

[perrandy]

That's how I see DD coming to :-( It's sad, but they are definitely going there unless people do something about it like...Not buying those future system? But the population is stupid, they will =/i agree but i think that retailers are going to get so pissed at this possible new trend that none will want to carry a console to their detriment.and yes the gaming community has been its worse own enemy because they have supported practices that are again...detrimental to us all as gamers

[Adrian-kun]

'The push towards the elimination of physical media does remove a number of middlemen from the equation, bringing overhead down.'
That's always a plus in my book. Eliminate the middleman by all means. I would rather give my money directly to the people who actually make games. There is a reason why I mostly play mobile games.

[Takao]

so?do you think that what they say is irrelevant?? if so thanks for your input

Yes, I'm saying CNET (a tech blog) should stick to their interest. They've shown various levels of incompetence in regards to things outside of their area of expertise in the past.

[TG_Judgement]

'The push towards the elimination of physical media does remove a number of middlemen from the equation, bringing overhead down.'
That's always a plus in my book. Eliminate the middleman by all means. I would rather give my money directly to the people who actually make games. There is a reason why I mostly play mobile games.

That's pretty n'all,but knowing who the people behind this particular push are,I don't see them bringing much of the savings to consumers...


In before this thread devolves into consoles vs PC, digital distribution vs physical distribution, or some other bullshit.

Funny you say that,cause this whole debacle boils down to exactly that (DD vs Physical). Comparisons to PC are also inevitable,since it's the model where DD-only is already strongly set-in.

[Shizuka]

CNET is full of crap, period.

[KnightofAncient]

Since when did opinion pieces become "crap." Its just reiterating what already happened and basing a opinion on it. Someone denouncing a organization as a whole based on their opinion? I think you know the word for it.

[Shizuka]

It's because I've been reading the PS Vita board on GameFAQs everyday and everything CNET had to say about it was bullshit. Bullshit because I own a PS Vita now, their complaints don't make any sense, and they've been pretty much the only website to say that the iPhone is better than the PS Vita for gaming. That, my friend, is crap of the lowest quality.

[KnightofAncient]

So, a opinion they made about the Vita validates denouncing a opinionated article with said facts of past happenings? If you validate that, then you can also validate the statement that XSEED *insert derogatory word here* or vice versa because of going DD. Some people have used said statement on this forum.

Also it depends on preferences if you like iPhone games or Vita games better, for example social games. Now if your saying someone's preferences just sucks or of "lower quality"? Then I refer you to my comment on the posts above.

[Shizuka]

So, a opinion they made about the Vita validates denouncing a opinionated article with said facts of past happenings? If you validate that, then you can also validate the statement that XSEED *insert derogatory word here* or vice versa because of going DD, some people have used said statement on this forum.

Also it depends on preferences if you like iPhone games or Vita games better, for example social games. Now if your saying someone's preferences just sucks or of "lower quality" then I refer you to my comment on the posts above.

First of all, every complaint about the PS Vita as a piece of hardware are non-existant, pretty much anyone that has one will vouch that. Second, they're heavily biased towards smartphones, as they're not a gaming website. Instead of pitching the Vita against the 3DS, which is a bad idea as it is, they pitch the Vita against smartphones, and that makes even less sense for someone that calls him/herself a gamer.

[KnightofAncient]

1. I am not raising the questionability of CNET's PS Vita comments.

2. You seem to have missed the point I was trying to make.

3. So now you made personalization remarks about CNET. Thank you, you just proved #2.

[Shizuka]

Oh wow, you proved that opinion-based comments are opinion-based, congratulations sir.

[TG_Judgement]

So,what on this article in particular do you dislike or think is flat-out wrong?

[KnightofAncient]

Oh wow, you proved that opinion-based comments are opinion-based, congratulations sir.

Close but no cigar, I wasnt the one making negative remarks based on ones opinion.


CNET is full of crap, period.

[Chaosblade]

I don't know, it sounded pretty accurate to me for the most part. I think you have to be pretty naive to not see it coming, a lot of publishers are doing the whole "$10 to unlock" thing with used games, including Sony.

I have my doubts console makers will be crazy enough to try to lock out used games, but it wouldn't really surprise me either. And I don't think anything would be passed along to the consumer. Next-gen is going to be filled with more nickle and diming DLC and half finished games with the rest available to download.

And CNET isn't really a gaming site, but I can't really give them flack for that Vita not getting released in the west comment. That was part of a prediction podcast, and that comment was supposed to be ridiculous and over the top. That woman was totally trolling gamers (because it's easy to do).

[conurebleu]

Next-gen is going to be filled with more nickle and diming DLC and half finished games with the rest available to download.

Therefore the next gen is going to be complete crap and I hope people don't get into that car. I'll be there, not buying, to show them that I totally disapprove theses methods.

[Shizuka]

At least, conurebleu, we're on the next generation of handhelds and we don't have that kind of crap... Yet.

[Dusty Starr]

The PS Vita Go! X3

[conurebleu]

I'm not even sure to get the vita, too much DD-only coming, no booklet, dematerialization XD

PS Vita Go = flop :P

[Wyrdwad]

OK, Slur, you need to calm down. I've gotten numerous reports about you, and you definitely crossed a line into outright flaming with your last two posts. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, and it is absolutely NOT all right to belittle him/her for posting it.

This is a place for people to get along, have fun and express themselves freely. Remember that, and think before you post.

-Tom

[ojsinnerz]

Yes, I'm saying CNET (a tech blog) should stick to their interest. They've shown various levels of incompetence in regards to things outside of their area of expertise in the past.

They're often incompetent in things they even cover.

[JiggiUp]

This is a place for people to get along, have fun and express themselves freely. Remember that, and think before you post.
No, it's the internet, and it's serious business.

Ignorant article, but I do feel that this generation will be the last stand for dedicated gaming platforms, especially if that rumored used game protection gets implemented in Sony and MS' next consoles. Steam and smartphones are just smothering everything in their path.

[Bled]

A vast majority of people i see who either don't care about the used game lock or the DD follow up their opinion with "I want to cut the middle man out."

What these people fail to realize is that the middle man actually saves us the consumer a lot of money. When you put the only means for purchasing a product with the company, that makes said product overly inflated and over priced.

I like to think of the middle man (retail) as the union of gaming, we the customer doesn't get as much say as an actual union (thats debatable on its own) however they are the invisible hand that keeps things relatively fair.

[KnightofAncient]

When you add in sales tax + gas + maybe transportation fare *if you take public transportation* which adds to the cost when you by retail, that makes DD more cost-efficient.

[GeekyJuuu]

It'll be interesting to actually SEE what the next gen of consoles brings us, rather than have to rely on doomsday rumors. I'd personally be SHOCKED if they cut used game support altogether, since it seems to just complicate things needlessly [rentals? borrowing a friend's game? Playing a game on a new console if yours breaks?] but sadly, I wouldn't be surprised to see this online pass business carrying on. :[

However, I'm holding my support for other reasons too. I don't feel as though I NEED new consoles. I'm not done with this genre yet. There's still SO many games I've yet to play! I got my PS3 just this summer and I'd LOVE to fill out my collection, there's plenty of games for retail and XBLA that I'd like to use my 360 for, and I'm looking forward to doing some, ah, "tricks" to my Wii to allow me to import European titles that we never got [Project Zero 2 Wii Edition, Another: Code R, ect.] I'm not ready to move on. :p Plus, I've got my "new" satisfied with my 3DS. :3 I'd sooner buy a Vita than a brand new console anyways. Anyone else feel the same?

[Terro]

I'm just going to wait and see what happens too. So many rumors flying around, I'll wait for the official news before I make ANY sort of judgement. And if things do go downhill, well, I guess I do own enough games to play (and more to buy still!) to last probably a lifetime! >_> Well, depending on how much time I do get to play.

[conurebleu]

I guess I do own
enough games to play (and more to buy still!) to last probably a lifetime! >_> Well, depending on how much time I do get to play.

Well same here ;-)

[TG_Judgement]

I like to think of the middle man (retail) as the union of gaming, we the customer doesn't get as much say as an actual union (thats debatable on its own) however they are the invisible hand that keeps things relatively fair.

A good read from a important 1C publishing employee that might clear you on how that "relationship" actually works (http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/opinion-retail-vs-steam/01887).

It's a bit old,and mostly related to PC (heh),but should apply to any mid-sized publishing outfit out there today (just add the ridiculous used sales market to the equation).

[Bled]

A good read from a important 1C publishing employee that might clear you on how that "relationship" actually works (http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/opinion-retail-vs-steam/01887).

It's a bit old,and mostly related to PC (heh),but should apply to any mid-sized publishing outfit out there today (just add the ridiculous used sales market to the equation).

a very interesting read, however it dose not apply to how i see our current problem.

If you cut out the middle man completely the only means for retrieving your game is DD, we are talking about the extinction of physical copies (unless Publishers/developers began opening their own retail stores). Theres one thing to open a new avenue for gamer's to have access to games "It’s not surprising that PC gamers turned to different methods of distribution" (OPINION: Retail vs Steam) and then there is just the pure ridiculousness of cutting out physical copies completely.

This is the timeline of events i see happening (very cynical opinion):

1. Microsoft and Sony's rumors true.
2. Systems release with big emphasis on DD and a used game lock.
3. Gamestop boycotts the systems.
4. Gamestop profits are hit hard.
5. New systems big emphasis on DD and a used game lock further hurt Gamestop's profits.
6. Gamestop struggles however eventually will fold.
7. all other retailers that sell games excluding private businesses become the main outlet for games.
8. "Shelf space was being reduced on an almost monthly basis in favour of the latest twitch kids console title and it was becoming more and more difficult to get titles listed in any depth – even when those titles were securing review scores of over 80 per cent." (OPINION: Retail vs Steam)
9. developers and publishers that don't get shelf space in retailers see that DD is the best avenue for selling and stop physical game production.
10. everything falls from there thus leading to retailers no longer carrying games and everything being DD.

very vague and rudimentary timeline of how i see this going.. however this is just my thoughts and opinions i hope that i am very wrong.

[TG_Judgement]

a very interesting read, however it dose not apply to how i see our current problem.

How exactly does it not apply to the current issue?That article talks about how the "relationship" that you almost romanticized actually works.It's a direct counter to your assessment that a middleman is often desired (not so,it's mostly tolerated). As I said,most middlemen are out to rip you off (and by you,I mean both publisher/dev and consumer) if they are even interested in your wares in the first place.Fact that a LOT of developers/publishers are going DD and keeping their distribution rights with them just drives this point further.

That timeline of events is not far off as how I see it either,but I think you're overstating how ballsy Gamestop actually is.I don't think they'll actually fight it as much as try to find an alternate source of revenue...

...or that they'll fold for that matter...

...or that retail actually dies (this soon anyways).

[perrandy]

from the article:
"Steam is here to stay. Retailers needs to communicate and work with publishers, rather than dictate and pontificate to ensure the same can be said for them"
i dont see how retailers can fully adopt this method without them losing alot of money.this c.r.a.p sounds more like when the manufacture started to make excuses to ship millions of jobs overseas.the ways things going the market is surely heading towards a crash of some sort because when companies have a monopoly they tend to raise their prices as much as they want because there's no competition.

[TG_Judgement]

The ways things going the market is surely heading towards a crash of some sort because when companies have a monopoly they tend to raise their prices as much as they want because there's no competition.

The industry has a lot of breathing room,and retailers specially (used sales bring billions on what I think are undeserved dollars) have enough room to switch their strategy. Don't forget that most costs until final sale are incurred by publishers themselves (printing,shipping).
As for monopoly,you mean publishers?They still compete with eachother,so I don't see a problem there.Talking about steam?Steam has a TON of competition (Amazon,Origin,Gamefly,Impulse,GoG,GamersGate,Gree nManGaming,etc),enough to keep them sweating for ages.

With that said, a market crash is the current equivalent of the Mayan calendar apocalypse (preposterous prediction on something relatively mundane). DD has not caused a cataclysm on PC and is not going to cause a cataclysm on consoles.DD & retail are going to co-exist peacefully (with pre-owned market dead,you can thank gamestop for that) and time will continue on until we bicker again over whatever paradigm shift happens next.

[perrandy]

The industry has a lot of breathing room,and retailers specially (used sales bring billions on what I think are undeserved dollars) have enough room to switch their strategy. Don't forget that most costs until final sale are incurred by publishers themselves (printing,shipping).
As for monopoly,you mean publishers?They still compete with eachother,so I don't see a problem there.Talking about steam?Steam has a TON of competition (Amazon,Origin,Gamefly,Impulse,GoG,GamersGate,Gree nManGaming,etc),enough to keep them sweating for ages.

With that said, a market crash is the current equivalent of the Mayan calendar apocalypse (preposterous prediction on something relatively mundane). DD has not caused a cataclysm on PC and is not going to cause a cataclysm on consoles.DD & retail are going to co-exist peacefully (with pre-owned market dead,you can thank gamestop for that) and time will continue on until we bicker again over whatever paradigm shift happens next.yeah but you missed the fact that the other merchants dont have the same model as steam.since amazon is mixed,ditto for gamefly and i dont know about the rest. i know that gamefly is renting pc games but i dont see this working to well on the console market since the big 3 would love to have all the control over their digital offerings. i must say that i could be very very wrong and the market thrives under " this new paradigm" or whatever you wanna call it.yes, it can possibly happen but it can also blow all in to their faces.let me note that there are gaming companies that are beginning to close their doors due to financial stresses...so..yeah...i think that this and next year are gonna be pretty interesting for us that follow the game industry in one way or another....

[TG_Judgement]

Actually,gamefly on PC is a client based solution (like steam),only the extra step they offer is an "unlimited subscription". Origin is a straight up steam copy (but not as good),Impulse is the same,GoG used to offer only old games DRM free(single installers with optional client) but they're shifting their strategy for more recent offerings,GamersGate is similar to GoG (single installer),but is more permissive on DRM, Greenmangaming allows you to sell back some of your games for store credit (uses a crappy downloader). Pretty diverse competition if you ask me.

And on another note,I think you're forgetting that game companies going out of business is not actually something out of the ordinary.Did you forget about Akllaim?Midway? Microsoft shutting down Ensemble?Activision closing down Bizarre Creations?EA closing Pandemic?And prolly a ton of other companies that I can't recall right now?Fact is, mismanagement is nothing new,and it's what's bringing a lot of the companies that are suddenly circling the news to their knees.

Oh,and I called what might come next "Paradigm shift",not Digital Distribution,since it's actually nearly a decade old. :P

[Bled]

Actually,gamefly on PC is a client based solution (like steam),only the extra step they offer is an "unlimited subscription". Origin is a straight up steam copy (but not as good),Impulse is the same,GoG used to offer only old games DRM free(single installers with optional client) but they're shifting their strategy for more recent offerings,GamersGate is similar to GoG (single installer),but is more permissive on DRM, Greenmangaming allows you to sell back some of your games for store credit (uses a crappy downloader). Pretty diverse competition if you ask me.

And on another note,I think you're forgetting that game companies going out of business is not actually something out of the ordinary.Did you forget about Akllaim?Midway? Microsoft shutting down Ensemble?Activision closing down Bizarre Creations?EA closing Pandemic?And prolly a ton of other companies that I can't recall right now?Fact is, mismanagement is nothing new,and it's what's bringing a lot of the companies that are suddenly circling the news to their knees.

Oh,and I called what might come next "Paradigm shift",not Digital Distribution,since it's actually nearly a decade old. :P

Video games are going the same direction as physical books vs. e-copies, except that books are probably a year ahead of video games in the timeline i gave in my last post. As im sure you can tell i enjoy having physical copies of my things rather than a digital copy on some harddrive or network.

I understand publishers/developers get nothing out of the secondary market and i understand they are not making as much as they would like to, however putting legitimate business in there grave is bad economics overall. I also don't share your optimism that a company that has a complete monopoly will be "fair" in their pricing, competition is the only thing that drives fair prices.

on a side note i don't see why people hate the secondary market in video games so much, i see why developers/publishers do but why the consumers? I also understand patriotism to the developers/publishers for their work, however that's no reason to cut out the secondary market completely.

[Slur]

Not this topic again.

Put it to rest.

[conurebleu]

Just stay out if you don't like.

Bled > the only bad side about real books is the weight... Gosh Sword of truth is SO heavy!!!

[Bled]

Just stay out if you don't like.

Bled > the only bad side about real books is the weight... Gosh Sword of truth is SO heavy!!!

I want to smell a book's crisp pages, run my hands over its binding, marvel at the oily dents my fingers have created by re-reading the same passage repeatedly, and physically see and hold the product i have purchased. I love the convince of digital media however i never want to see the death of physical media.

The funny thing is i feel like my dad, saying this lol but its true.

[conurebleu]

We feel the same. I like to turn pages, not to click on a button. It's...the habit. I simply love that.

[Chaosblade]

I understand publishers/developers get nothing out of the secondary market and i understand they are not making as much as they would like to, however putting legitimate business in there grave is bad economics overall. I also don't share your optimism that a company that has a complete monopoly will be "fair" in their pricing, competition is the only thing that drives fair prices.

This is why DD on consoles is horrible and DD on PCs is the Best Thing Ever.

But consoles suck by the nature of being closed boxes where a single company can decide what you can and can't do with it, so there's little that can be done about that. ;) I don't think traditional consoles have a place in the future, and I look forward to their extinction. As much as people seem to talk about how iOS has killed the handheld gaming model, I think portable dedicated game systems will be around longer than traditional home consoles.

And speaking of digital books, Amazon won me over when I realized you don't NEED a Kindle to read Kindle books, you can use a phone or PC app. Considering I don't read books for leisure, PC is perfect for me. Why pay $42 for a book when I can get a digital version for $16? (http://www.amazon.com/dp/1849691444)

[Bled]

We feel the same. I like to turn pages, not to click on a button. It's...the habit. I simply love that.

and its that affinity that carries over to video games and not wanting to see the death of physical copies.

[conurebleu]

Yeah. It's not a rational thought. But still yes it is. We are old school and want to stay this way.

Why pay 42$ for a book? I usually buy my books used. So the book will not die or end up in recycling bin. It's like 14.99+tx instead of 39.99+tx which is considerable.


I look forward to their extinction

This is sad to read for those who do not share your point of view.

[Bled]

This is why DD on consoles is horrible and DD on PCs is the Best Thing Ever.

But consoles suck by the nature of being closed boxes where a single company can decide what you can and can't do with it, so there's little that can be done about that. ;) I don't think traditional consoles have a place in the future, and I look forward to their extinction. As much as people seem to talk about how iOS has killed the handheld gaming model, I think portable dedicated game systems will be around longer than traditional home consoles.

And speaking of digital books, Amazon won me over when I realized you don't NEED a Kindle to read Kindle books, you can use a phone or PC app. Considering I don't read books for leisure, PC is perfect for me. Why pay $42 for a book when I can get a digital version for $16? (http://www.amazon.com/dp/1849691444)

I enjoy my PC that i have built from the ground up (i take pride in that), however i do enjoy the simplicity of dedicated counsels. not everyone can be the computing wiz that some of us are and that is where dedicated counsels come in, it bridges that gap. I agree though, traditional home counsels in my opinion are going to be dropped before handhelds.

[Chaosblade]

Yeah. It's not a rational thought. But still yes it is. We are old school and want to stay this way.

Why pay 42$ for a book? I usually buy my books used. So the book will not die or end up in recycling bin. It's like 14.99+tx instead of 39.99+tx which is considerable.



This is sad to read for those who do not share your point of view.

Personally, I think the day traditional consoles are gone, gaming will be better for everyone. I think in the future games will be cheaper and a lot more diverse (just like PC). But I think they'll also be digital, so I guess that will be a problem for collectors.

And that book is still more expensive used than digital, $23 is the cheapest I've seen it, most are still over $30. Those sort of books are more expensive than leisure reading material.

[conurebleu]

I prefer to pay 15$ for my physical one that I can turn pages and put near my bed ;-)

That books seems like a fake one sorry ^^''

[Chaosblade]

I wouldn't be reading a game development/programming book in bed, only at my PC when I'm using them ;) Not sure what you mean by fake though.

[Wyrdwad]

on a side note i don't see why people hate the secondary market in video games so much, i see why developers/publishers do but why the consumers?

I may be in the industry, but I'm also an avid gamer (been gaming since the days of the Atari 2600)... and I don't think most consumers hate the secondary market altogether. However, if there's a game company or a specific game release that we really want to support, I think most gamers know that it's best to buy new. Whenever possible, I try to buy all of my games (and books, CDs and DVDs, for that matter) new rather than used, solely because I know that absolutely none of the profits from used sales or rentals go to the original creators at all. If I buy something used, I'm supporting the store I bought it from, NOT the company that made it.

That having been said, though, there are some stores I feel compelled to support because I love them so much. Book-Off, for example, is where I do most of my DVD shopping these days. Not for new releases, but for older, out-of-print things, or (on rare occasion) games or movies I'm about 20% interested in -- not enough that I'd ever pay full price, as I expect I'll hate them, but enough that I'd still like to pick them up if the price is right.

...I've also been known to buy used movies on DVD solely because I want to see the movie out of morbid curiosity, but specifically *don't* want to support the studio that made it in any way. There was, for example, a supposedly atrocious adaption of Susan Cooper's wonderful book "The Dark Is Rising," which is part of my favorite book series of all time... and after hearing about what they did to the movie, I didn't want the creators to get a single penny from me. I still wanted to see the trainwreck in action, though, so I bought it on DVD used as soon as I could.

That sort of situation is pretty rare, however. (:

-Tom

[Bled]

I may be in the industry, but I'm also an avid gamer (been gaming since the days of the Atari 2600)... and I don't think most consumers hate the secondary market altogether. However, if there's a game company or a specific game release that we really want to support, I think most gamers know that it's best to buy new. Whenever possible, I try to buy all of my games (and books, CDs and DVDs, for that matter) new rather than used, solely because I know that absolutely none of the profits from used sales or rentals go to the original creators at all. If I buy something used, I'm supporting the store I bought it from, NOT the company that made it.

That having been said, though, there are some stores I feel compelled to support because I love them so much. Book-Off, for example, is where I do most of my DVD shopping these days. Not for new releases, but for older, out-of-print things, or (on rare occasion) games or movies I'm about 20% interested in -- not enough that I'd ever pay full price, as I expect I'll hate them, but enough that I'd still like to pick them up if the price is right.

...I've also been known to buy used movies on DVD solely because I want to see the movie out of morbid curiosity, but specifically *don't* want to support the studio that made it in any way. There was, for example, a supposedly atrocious adaption of Susan Cooper's wonderful book "The Dark Is Rising," which is part of my favorite book series of all time... and after hearing about what they did to the movie, I didn't want the creators to get a single penny from me. I still wanted to see the trainwreck in action, though, so I bought it on DVD used as soon as I could.

That sort of situation is pretty rare, however. (:

-Tom

You said something in your post that raises a good point "out-of-print things," what would happen in a video game DD market with no physical copies and no secondary market?

[lailmith]

There is difference between games/movies DD vs physical copies and traditional books vs ebooks. Games and movies the experience is same (playing and watching experience). With books and ebooks, it is completely different. And for that reason I'd much rather see physical games die than losing the experience of traditional books. DD is most likely the future. Future I don't like. But DD games&movies are a lot smaller loss than DD books.

[TG_Judgement]

Video games are going the same direction as physical books vs. e-copies, except that books are probably a year ahead of video games in the timeline i gave in my last post. As im sure you can tell i enjoy having physical copies of my things rather than a digital copy on some harddrive or network.

Most things are already ahead of consoles when it comes to DD,really.Music DD already has a big Digital Presence,as well as e-books(as you mentioned) movies.There's nothing wrong with liking physical wares,and the market still serves those that prefer those. In fact,notice that all markets that are already digitalized still have a physical counterpart.Makes me wonder why people still think gaming is going to be different and shut out to DD-only.


I understand publishers/developers get nothing out of the secondary market and i understand they are not making as much as they would like to, however putting legitimate business in there grave is bad economics overall. I also don't share your optimism that a company that has a complete monopoly will be "fair" in their pricing, competition is the only thing that drives fair prices.

Sending "businesses to their grave" is both hyperbolic and unimportant to publishers.It's not their job to keep gamestop et all alive,but to keep their own companies in black. Businesses have to adapt to survive,and if retailers like gamestop can't survive the pre-owned teat getting cut,then they deserve to have their business sink.
Oh,and I don't recall being particularly optimistic about monopolies...or even acknowledging them on this point in the first place.My point was the opposite,in fact.There's enough competition in both digital space and publishing for it to keep hot for a while.


on a side note i don't see why people hate the secondary market in video games so much, i see why developers/publishers do but why the consumers? I also understand patriotism to the developers/publishers for their work, however that's no reason to cut out the secondary market completely.

Easy peasy. Gamestop (and all who subscribe to this business model) rips every single person off. they buy your pre-owned for 5-10 bucks,and sell them for only 5 bucks bellow MSRP,so that's around 40 bucks of pure profit for new titles per unit sold.For a publisher/developer,that's money your supposedly reseller is making off your product off your back,and as a consumer,you get an atrocious deal.It's bad for for everyone except gamestop (et all),who make off like a bandit. If you don't see why the publishers need to do something about it,then iunno what to tell you,and for why consumers should hate it...well,iunno about you,but I hate both being ripped off and seeing others being ripped off.

[Chaosblade]

Most things are already ahead of consoles when it comes to DD,really.Music DD already has a big Digital Presence,as well as e-books(as you mentioned) movies.There's nothing wrong with liking physical wares,and the market still serves those that prefer those. In fact,notice that all markets that are already digitalized still have a physical counterpart.Makes me wonder why people still think gaming is going to be different and shut out to DD-only.

Music is the one thing that does benefit from a physical format (lossless, CD quality audio is unarguably better than the standard 128kbps MP3s you almost always find with DD). And unfortunately, major record labels are already planning to ditch the CD format in a couple years. I guess movies may have a similar problem, I'm not sure. I know they do with streaming, but that will be fixed as Internet speeds get faster and cheaper, assuming broadband providers actually improve their infrastructure instead of paying their executives massive bonuses with the government money they're getting. /off topic tangent

[Chelli]

I absolutely hate the idea of needing to be connected to the internet to play a game. If consoles actually pull that crap, then chances are I'll quit consoles altogether and just get a gaming PC (or just completely quit playing modern games). I know PCs are technically superior in every way, but the reason I play on consoles is because they're simpler; I don't have to worry about constantly upgrading different parts. But if consoles start becoming the same as a PC where I have to be connected just to play a game, then I'm going to get the better version.

[Chaosblade]

You really don't have to always be connected to the Internet to play on a PC which makes the console thing pretty funny (since people complain about PC DRM). With Steam you only have to be online the first time you run a game to activate it, and after that you can use offline mode, but you occasionally will have to play while online again to re-activate, to keep people from taking advantage of that and sharing accounts. And there's also GoG which is totally DRM-free (and they're giving away Fallout 1 (http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/fallout) for free, a real classic RPG, deal ends today), and a lot of the games in Amazon's sales are DRM-free as well.

Fortunately, that other issue isn't a big deal either. A good PC that will last a while will cost more up front, but you'll save a ton of money on much cheaper games to make up for it. Buy a nice video card near the start of a console generation and it will probably last until near the end. People are still using 8800 and 9800GTs (same thing basically) from 2007, though they are definitely showing their age these days.

[TG_Judgement]

And unfortunately, major record labels are already planning to ditch the CD format in a couple years.

Wait...what?The record labels are going to ditch CD's?After all these years kicking and screaming like petulant childs for customers..."serving themselves"?That's hilarious if true.


I know PCs are technically superior in every way, but the reason I play on consoles is because they're simpler; I don't have to worry about constantly upgrading different parts. But if consoles start becoming the same as a PC where I have to be connected just to play a game, then I'm going to get the better version.

You must have missed most of the current gen then.Patches all over the place (with Sony systems being incredibly notorious for firmware updates) & a few games already requiring being online (arkham asylum & some capcom titles comes to mind,not to mention "project 10 dollars"), so consoles being simpler have become less and less true as time goes on as they get more complicated & PCs get easier (with driver/OS patching getting streamlined & DD making installs trivial).


With Steam you only have to be online the first time you run a game to activate it, and after that you can use offline mode, but you occasionally will have to play while online again to re-activate, to keep people from taking advantage of that and sharing accounts.

This must be a recent change,as I've had offline accounts working for months on end before.Rest is spot on.

[Wyrdwad]

You said something in your post that raises a good point "out-of-print things," what would happen in a video game DD market with no physical copies and no secondary market?

Theoretically, nothing will ever go out-of-print again. I mean, I know that's a bit idealized (and there are already counterexamples, so it's still something that needs to be worked on), but as time progresses, there will be less and less reason for any digital game ever to be taken off the market.

You may think this sounds overly idealized, but look at PS1 Classics on PSN, or Wii Virtual Console. Yeah, they're incomplete listings now... but they're only going to get more complete as time goes on. And newer games will eventually wind up in similar "PSP Classics," "PS3 Classics," "Wii Classics" sections, where they'll theoretically live on in perpetuity.

But even if the worst happens and a game vanishes from legal sale forever... well, that's what crazy hackers on the internet are for! There's pretty much zero chance that any game will be lost forever as long as there are unscrupulous people stripping it of its DRM and archiving it onto some overseas hard drive. ;) And once a game becomes "abandonware," it's pretty unlikely any company will go after someone for distributing it.

-Tom

[Dusty Starr]

I have been hearing that eventually ISPs will be spying on their users, wanting to see if they are downloading anything they shouldn't be, and would then slow thier internet to a crawl or something like that if they did. My hope for gaming in the future has always been "well, way down the line, I can just start downloading ROMs; I doubt anyone will care at that point", but if this sort of thing is true (no idea if it is, I am not hearing a lot about it), I can imagine it being a thorn in that plan. :/ Unless abandonware means there would be no legal strings preventing using the ROMS.

[KnightofAncient]

I have been hearing that eventually ISPs will be spying on their users, wanting to see if they are downloading anything they shouldn't be, and would then slow thier internet to a crawl or something like that if they did. My hope for gaming in the future has always been "well, way down the line, I can just start downloading ROMs; I doubt anyone will care at that point", but if this sort of thing is true (no idea if it is, I am not hearing a lot about it), I can imagine it being a thorn in that plan. :/ Unless abandonware means there would be no legal strings preventing using the ROMS.

Yes, some ISPs have agreed with the MPAA or RIAA to monitor any transfer of material especially on P2P networks (Torrents), but there are tools to avoid your IP from getting noticed by the MPAA or RIAA.

But,its mostly related to music and media, not games.

[Wyrdwad]

I'm also not sure how legal that is, since it's essentially the same sort of thing as phone-tapping. I suspect if it becomes more widespread, there'll end up being lawsuits and it'll eventually be repealed.

But either way, abandonware is indeed technically legal, since a piece of software isn't "abandonware" unless and until all rights to that piece of software have completely lapsed. And if all rights have lapsed, that piece of software is technically public domain.

...At least, as far as I'm aware, anyway.

-Tom

[Dusty Starr]

Just because something is obviously illegal does not mean that it will not still be happening. :/ Look at the Citizens United case.


What are those ways around this sort of thing anyways?

[TG_Judgement]

I'm also not sure how legal that is, since it's essentially the same sort of thing as phone-tapping. I suspect if it becomes more widespread, there'll end up being lawsuits and it'll eventually be repealed.

I'm pretty sure your government will find a way to make it permanently legal.Constitutions are so quaint these days anyways... :v


But either way, abandonware is indeed technically legal, since a piece of software isn't "abandonware" unless and until all rights to that piece of software have completely lapsed. And if all rights have lapsed, that piece of software is technically public domain.

People do have to keep in mind that not all software is abandonware. As long as a developer/publisher has the rights to it (and regularly exercises it,I guess),it's still offhands to non-legit copies.

...obviously all second-hand knowledge though.


What are those ways around this sort of thing anyways?

Anonymous proxies is the solution that comes to mind...

[KnightofAncient]

Proxies, free Secure VPN's, software you can find just by googling.

[Wyrdwad]

Just because something is obviously illegal does not mean that it will not still be happening. :/

True. But unlike a lot of people, I have faith in democracy. If something so blatantly illegal is happening, it will EVENTUALLY be caught and halted.

It might take a while... but eventually, it'll be sorted out.

-Tom

[KnightofAncient]

True. But unlike a lot of people, I have faith in democracy. If something so blatantly illegal is happening, it will EVENTUALLY be caught and halted.

It might take a while... but eventually, it'll be sorted out.

-Tom

I have to agree with you here, something illegal can happen for a period of time, but it will be stopped over public outrage.

[Dusty Starr]

Oh, I have faith in Democracy. :3 I just wish we had one. X3

[TG_Judgement]

True. But unlike a lot of people, I have faith in democracy. If something so blatantly illegal is happening, it will EVENTUALLY be caught and halted.

It's great you believe so,but faith in democracy is not equal to faith in those who run it,and the later is what makes the former function.

These days,I don't have much faith on the latter at all...